I need a little help getting unstuck please

Discussion about the Four Rules of YNAB, how and why they work, and what you need to do to implement them.

I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby Trakeveth » Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:57 am

Ok, I thought I had this all figured out and then I watched some of Dave Ramsey's Baby Steps videos on YouTube and now I think I am in a bit of paralysis by analysis mode.

So, his first baby step is to set aside $1,000 in an emergency fund. No problem. I can add to my existing emergency fund and get it to $1,000 in the next month or two when I get my bonus.

The second baby step...paying off debt with the debt snowball, is where I am getting a little tripped up.

The only debt that we have aside from our mortgage is 1 credit card and 1 car loan (our second car was paid off a couple of months ago).

What is confusing me is saving to budget categories vs. paying off debt.

For example...Restaurants is an easy one. That is a completely voluntary category. We don't HAVE TO eat out at restaurants so I do not HAVE TO allocate money to that category and I can allocate that money to debt reduction instead.

But what about something like Christmas? Technically Christmas is voluntary spending, but it is money that I know I will spend. Should I be allocating money to Christmas while I am still working to pay off debt? If I do, I can rest assured that Christmas will be covered, but the debt reduction will be a little slower. If I don't and the debt is not paid off before Christmas, I might find myself in trouble.

Also, what about something like Household Maintenance? We don't have any money that we have to spend in that category right now, but there will be something at some point in the future. When do I start allocating money to that category?

Dave Ramsey says you have to focus on one thing at a time and after setting aside your $1,000 emergency fund that one thing should be paying off debt.

So is paying off debt AND allocating money to "Have to" categories doing more than one thing at a time? I'm confused. :|
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby virago317 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:59 am

The Dave Ramsey and YNAB philosophies are similar but not identical; you can decide for yourself about what system works best for you or create a hybrid (as many people here do). YNAB focuses on saving for the buffer and saving gradually for future expenses (like Christmas) at a slightly higher priority than paying off debt, so you can stop living paycheck to paycheck and eliminate (as much as possible) nasty surprises with irregular bills that creep up. Once all of your regular expenses are well planned for, you can really focus on your debt snowball without having to worry whether you are mistakenly sending your Christmas funds (car registration, insurance funds, etc.) to the creditor. So, I would agree that it's better to save a little cushion and plan for upcoming expenses before paying off debt (since I like YNAB and never got into Dave Ramsey), but everyone has their own opinion and it's really about what you feel best about for your situation.
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby malisab » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:36 am

Budgeting IS a gray thing - no black and white. And I'd argue that with YNAB, it's more gray than with other budget philosophies, which is a good thing. But for those of US (raising hand) who often get stuck in paralysis by analysis mode, it can be frustrating. But I believe it's that grayness that makes it so good in general and for us specifically, because it forces us to make decisions...it's not going to tell us what to do. Even when we make our budget, it's up to us to decide if we want to keep the money building in those categories at the end of the month or to redistribute it somehow. When we overspend, we decide if we want to play whack-a-mole or let it roll to next month, to the buffer or to the category. We HAVE to keep thinking about it, and that's a good thing. No set and forget here.

(ETA: There's a whole giant chunk about me...if you just want the 'what do you think about my situation', skip to the last paragraph.:) )

That being said, as I started YNAB, I was really excited to fund all those categories. I worked out several 'ideal' budgets over the summer when I was broker-than-broke. I had grand plans for what I'd do with the first big paycheck of the school year that included most of summer school as well. But, when the time came, I couldn't see it sitting in an account when I felt the crushing pressure of the numerous, little, picky, high-interest debts we had. So I paid off the little annoying ones. When I got the small ones paid off, the next one seemed monumental, but I still thought I could do it over 'a few' months. I was also saving for summer, which, though I'm not a DR person, could be thought of as having Step 1 done. I opted to continue to throw it all at debt. I think it was paid off in December (along with another tiny, 0% loan which I realized was worth paying off even though it was 0% because I didn't like the account it auto-deducted from). So from August to the end of the year or so, I got rid of four little debts and one sorta big one. There's one slightly bigger one and then two more bigger than that. My goal was to get through the next one this school year. It seemed inconceivable back in December, so I resigned myself to the fact that it would hang around through about 1/3 of next school year. But now that we're almost through a refinance (lowering interest a few percent...saving hundreds a month, balance going up minimally) I can see that next debt nearly gone by the end of the school year. And it's the fact that it can be so close to being gone that has me motivated to pay it off, rather than stopping and focusing on something else.

This, to me, is the key. I want to be able to 'check something off'. So since I'll be so close to having it paid off on the date that is important to me (end of school year), I think I can move mountains to make it happen. If I wasn't close, I wouldn't be that motivated.

What's funny is that I think it's you (Tracy) who has got me re-thinking this, even before this post. Without going to look at journals right now, I think it's you that's written about building this or that category and even this morning before I got on the board, I thought...maybe I should shoot for some ideal category balances in some things before I throw everything at that debt. :lol:

Before this recent hesitation, my plan has been to get THIS debt knocked out and then take a little 'break' from throwing everything at debt and fund most of the categories I want, and also possibly save for new flooring before the next two CCs. What I'm hoping is that if I fund categories this summer with summer school money, then next year I can save for new flooring relatively quickly and when I've got the money saved, shop around and see if I can get a good deal AND a 0%/low interest loan (because one of the remaining cards is outrageous) and thow the money I'd saved at the bad CC and trade that balance for a much lower interest loan. The other card is pretty good and it's last on the list.



So, for me...it'd come down to how much is left on the CC and the car loan and what the interest rates are. Also, not being a DR-ite...what does he, or more importantly what do YOU consider to be an 'emergency' which your e-fund is there for. $1000 isn't a job loss, major injury, etc. fund. (heaven help us both in that situation) It's an 'oh shoot, I didn't expect that' fund. (In my eyes). In that way, I see it as some of the same money that you might have in home repair (it'd pay for a water heater) or car repair (it'd pay for some mid-range repairs). Depending on the age of your home and cars, it may be prudent to have those categories really funded heavily, or you may be able to roll the dice for a year, betting that you can use the e-fund if necessary. I don't plan to have a specific e-fund category, but I'm going to be looking at about $2k that I'm going to load up some categories with whenever it is that I decide to take my break from debt repayment. I'm hoping that will be in the summer. (These are the lumpy ones, I'm definitely already saving for the non-lumpy ones.)
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby Trakeveth » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:37 am

You know, Virago, you are right....and I sort-of came to that same realization myself in the shower (where I do some of my best thinking).

I had a plan all set in place until I started watching those Dave Ramsey videos...which I only watched because I have seen him mentioned so many times in these forums.

What Dave says all makes sense, but it is a different system than YNAB. I need to pick one system and go with it.

The reason that I felt so comfortable with the YNAB methodology is because I have learned from experience that life happens no matter if you are in debt or not and there is a certain peace of mind that can be achieved by being prepared for "life."

I think I need to put my blinders on and just go back to Plan A and run with it.
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby lautzu » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:38 am

My really short answer would be: Save for Christmas. It's not a discretionary expense. If your life insurance premium was due on December, you'd save to pay for it. Christmas is the same way for me. Maybe you could spend a bit less, but you can't not spend (if you want your family to speak to you, anyway... :D)

My longer, somewhat soapbox-ish, answer would be that this confusion is one of the reasons I think Dave Ramsey is a little bit rigid with his "focus on one thing at a time" mantra. Life isn't that simple. Yes, discipline is important, and that's where DR is great. But flexibility is important, too, and that's what makes YNAB such a powerful tool - it recognizes this. There can be as many factors entering into what to do first as there are individuals out there. Maybe cash flow is a real issue for you, and you actually need to pay off some debt before even building your buffer. Maybe your smallest debt isn't the one you should pay off because it has a small payment and a low interest rate. Who knows?... What I do know is that you should do what is right for you. Be disciplined, yes, and take the great advice that DR and others offer, but make sure it's working for you and helping you get where you need to be.

[Gets down of soapbox, returns to getting another cup of Saturday morning coffee...]
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby malisab » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:40 am

You're soap-boxish answer isn't long LauTzu. ;)
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby lautzu » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:41 am

Trakeveth wrote:What Dave says all makes sense, but it is a different system than YNAB. I need to pick one system and go with it.


I don't think so. It's not about picking one, it's about doing what works for you - that might be some of each.

(sorry for the repetition, we were posting simultaneously!)
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby Trakeveth » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:51 am

Malisa, I think you and I have the same brain! :lol:

I can put myself in your shoes and say "yup, I'd do the same thing." or "Yup, I'd have the same hesitation."

In my case, I was so relieved to have found YNAB and the methodology of made so much sense to me that it instantly made me go from feeling sick to my stomach about 1 credit card debt, to feeling like it was okay....not okay to have the debt, but okay in the sense that there was a logical plan to take into consideration that life does still happen even when you have debt to pay off.

It was like a huge sigh of relief.

Then I started second-guessing myself and watching all these videos and that's when my head starting spinning. I just need to stop and follow ONE system and the system that gives me the most peace of mind is YNAB.
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby Trakeveth » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:53 am

Todd, my mother always says "You have to have a plan, but part of that plans needs to be flexibility." :)
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby maryea » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:32 am

We too are working the steps and we should be on step 7 by June. Very excited about that. I say YES, set up a christmas fund since you know you will be spending the money. I have very few sinking funds but I definitely have Christmas, Property TAx and graduation gifts for our gkids. My advise is always keep looking ahead....when we see that we will likely need some larger work done on our teeth for instance, I immediately start a sinking fund. But the routine stuff I cash flow.
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby thefish30 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:38 am

life happens no matter if you are in debt or not and there is a certain peace of mind that can be achieved by being prepared for "life."


There is some really good thinking in this thread, guys. The above principle I think can apply to time allocation as well.
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby Maggie Magpie » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:16 pm

There are two types of emergencies:

The first kind of "emergency" is for the newbie who does not have a lot of experience budgeting, but who is embarking on this new spending plan voyage. Initially, an "emergency" is for lumpy, unplanned expenses that arise when you are "new" to planning your money. Examples might be a) an increase in your internet bill, or b) a kids birthday party invite which requires the purchase of a present or c) a tire blows on your car or d) a "crown" required at the dentist office. These are "life" expenses that are probably going to happen at some point, but when you have a lot of debt and you're embarking on a spending plan for the first time, saving money into an ER (or baby ER) is a new habit in its infancy.

The second kind of emergency is for the seasoned spending planner who has already paid down or off debt and has enough discretionary income to fund all possible "life" categories. He/she knows that while all possible categories are funded or are being funded, there should also be an emergency fund for those extreme events that we all hope NEVER happen. Examples would be a) job loss or b) medical expenses due to catastrophic health issues.

To me, the difference between the DR Baby EF and YNAB is that YNAB takes that theoretical $1000 of DR's and applies it specifically to categories that include those lumpy items that come up.....kids birthday party invites, dental bills etc. You KNOW these little annoying expenses are going to happen at some point. Using the dental category as an example, depending on your age, you can pretty much count on having to subsidize or pay for a crown as you get older. So, the seasoned spending planner will have a dental category set up and funded because to him/her this is NOT an emergency but a "probably will happen" category. In essence, as you build your YNAB categories and fund them (no matter how little the amount), you are actually building the DR version of a baby EF.

OK....having said all of that.....to answer the original question in this topic, YNAB helps you focus on the debt and get in that zone better because you are already building your buffers and categories as you go along. Initially, your budget will be a work in progress as you build and revamp it to a point where it starts to find its own rhythm and you can simply focus on drilling down on the debt. I recommend you consider this:

Build your categories. Think about every single life item you can (specific to your current situation) and build those categories. Now take your payroll and assign what you can, even if it means only applying $1 to a category.....you are building a habit. Your brain is now "planning" all possibilities, and as you find your rhythm, YNAB will help you balance how you pay down/off your debt. Over time, the categories will start the build, your brain will now be in full motion and you will naturally start to increase the categories and the debt payments.....with patience, it will all naturally find its true balance in the end.

I hope this makes sense.
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby malisab » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:13 pm

Maggie Magpie wrote:I hope this makes sense.


Very much so. Very nice.
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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby xraymd » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:25 pm

Maggie Magpie wrote:Build your categories. Think about every single life item you can (specific to your current situation) and build those categories. Now take your payroll and assign what you can, even if it means only applying $1 to a category.....you are building a habit. Your brain is now "planning" all possibilities, and as you find your rhythm, YNAB will help you balance how you pay down/off your debt. Over time, the categories will start the build, your brain will now be in full motion and you will naturally start to increase the categories and the debt payments.....with patience, it will all naturally find its true balance in the end.


Greetings, Maggie Magpie, thanks for a great post. My thoughts, in the interest of simplicity, might be to consider (just as you said) every single life item you can (that constitues a lumpy expense, for instance) - but rather than create beaucoup categories, perhaps create one category called Unplanned Expenses - or some such - and use the memo feature to record what kinds of expenses COULD come up. Outflows from this category equate to the expenses that DID come up, and other related budget categories could then be budgeted a correspondingly higher monthly allotment going forward. But that might cut down on the burgeoning of actual categories (a lot to look at!) so long as there is one collected place to review what surprise expenses might arise. Can you tell I *love* the memo feature? :)

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Re: I need a little help getting unstuck please

Postby Maggie Magpie » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:56 pm

xraymd wrote:Greetings, Maggie Magpie, thanks for a great post. My thoughts, in the interest of simplicity, might be to consider (just as you said) every single life item you can (that constitues a lumpy expense, for instance) - but rather than create beaucoup categories, perhaps create one category called Unplanned Expenses - or some such - and use the memo feature to record what kinds of expenses COULD come up. Outflows from this category equate to the expenses that DID come up, and other related budget categories could then be budgeted a correspondingly higher monthly allotment going forward. But that might cut down on the burgeoning of actual categories (a lot to look at!) so long as there is one collected place to review what surprise expenses might arise. Can you tell I *love* the memo feature? :)

xraymd


Absolutely agree and yes, I love the "memo" feature too! You don't want to drive yourself crazy thinking about every single category possible. So, to further clarify.....I wouldn't have a "Birthday Party" category, however, I might have a "Gifts, Christmas, and Birthday" category. We KNOW this is part of life. A "dental" category is also necessary if we go to the dentist. Dental insurance covers check ups, x-rays etc., but many policies only cover partial items like crowns. If you are 20 years old, you would not probably put a whole lot of funds into a dental category if you have insurance and no big dental issues. However, you may have an "Entertainment and Extra Curricular" category larger them mine at this stage. I, too, have what I've labeled a "Miscellaneous and Household" category for those one-off items that I require to furnish my kitchen or other living quarters. I have a "Household Maintenance" category to differentiate any pest control services, chem-lawn, gardening, HVAC maintenance services, for example. I KNOW for sure that my daughter will require a full set of braces in about 4 years, so I've already started that category. The joy of funding THAT category through YNAB is that it doesn't eat up as much of my monthly discretionary income compared to starting such a category 6 months to a year before she begins visiting the orthodontist. What on earth would I have normally done in the past? Oh....jiggled and juggled and dipped into savings. Braces would have become an "emergency" in the old days. :idea:

My emergency fund is strictly for a catastrophic emergency. My buffer and my "growing categories" are what I would have considered a "baby emergency" in the past.

Overall, this YNAB system is a growing and evolving thing. And as I build my categories, my mortgage principal payments are getting larger and larger......one feeds off the other. So in answer to the original question....."train the brain" to implement and fund the categories and the debt will begin to snowball as you find your rhythm with YNAB. I've mentioned this a number of times in other posts, but the combination of YNAB along with a good debt snowball calculator like this one: http://www.whatsthecost.com/snowball.aspx?country=us helps streamline your debt payment application process to ensure you meet your goals.

This has become a hobby and a game for me. SOOoooo much fun once you find your path!
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